I wanted to start the first “Out of curiosity” edition with a dear friend and a talented Composer. Since that guy was not available, I’ve asked Grant Kirkhope to participate instead. He agreed of course, but only after receiving a generous sum of money in his bank account. Since this costed me a lot, I’ve made sure to ask as many questions I had in mind. Jokes apart, I really wanted to have a small section in my blog where I can ask different question at different people I love and esteem and Grant is one of those (If you are new to me and Grant Kirkhope…this is a Joke). Also, I really miss the “IWATA ASKS” moments. I had and I have a huge love and respect for Satoru Iwata. If you want to treat yourself, buy and read the ASK IWATA book, you won’t regret it.
On my business card, I am a corporate president. In my mind, I am a game developer. But in my heart, I am a gamer. “Satoru Iwata”
Satoru Iwata was born on December 6, 1959 in Hokkaido, Japan. He graduated from the Tokyo Institute of Technology with a degree in Computer Science and joined HAL Laboratory in 1983, becoming president in 1993. After joining Nintendo Co., Ltd in 2000, he was appointed president in 2002. As a developer, Iwata helped produce iconic games such as Kirby&;s Dream Land, Super Smash Bros., and EarthBound; as the president of Nintendo, he produced innovative hardware such as the Nintendo DS and the Wii, which have played a key role in the global expansion of gaming.
Dear slacker boy. Long time not spending some quality times together. The reason is that after all the headache you gave me, I needed some time alone to recover, I’m sure you understand. I have a series of questions for you, out of my curiosity, that I want to satisfy, and I believe it may interest also other people. Should we start?
Could you tell me more about how did you managed to convince Rare to hire you? Everyone knows you are a slacker.
Me? A slacker? ……. After leaving music college I spent the next 11 years playing in bands, some did well, some didn’t. I was on and off unemployment benefit in between tours and playing in pub rock bands. One of the local bands I played for had a keyboard player called Robin Beanland, we became good friends. One day he announced that he’d got a job, I couldn’t believe it, no one that I knew got a job, we all just played in bands and claimed unemployment. He told me he’d got a job at a video games’ company called Rare as a composer/sound designer and off he went.
He’d been there about a year and a half and he said to me, Grant, don’t you think it’s time you got a job? (I was 33 and still living at home with my mum). I said, what can I do I just play in bands? He said why not try and do what I’m doing, writing music for video games? He recommended some equipment for me to buy, an Atari ST, a copy of Cubase and a synth and I set to work trying to write music that I thought would be appropriate for video games. I sent Rare five cassette tapes over the course of 1994 and never got a reply, then out of the blue I got a letter asking me to go for an interview. They asked me to write three pieces to bring with me, a Batman style orchestra piece, a Mario style platformer piece and a guitar based fighting game piece.
Dave Wise and Simon Farmer interviewed me on a Friday afternoon in September 1995 and to my surprise I got the job, I started at Rare on October 15th 1995.
Something that always impressed me, I must admit, it’s your incredible talent for finding themes that people do remember and whistle. I still know by heart most of the music you wrote. Let’s take Banjo & Kazooie per instance, how did you get the idea of working on a theme that you re-arranged in so many different ways through the whole game?
I really don’t know how I do that, I just try to come up with something that’s catchy. I’m not a very intelligent composer, I just mess around with an instrument until I hear something that I like. I don’t think you ever know if you’ve written anything that’s good until other people hear it, judging your own work is impossible.
Banjo Kazooie was the first game that I did where I created all the music and all the sound effects so it was a big deal for me at the time, I didn’t want to mess it up. I didn’t want to make it sound like that pop/jazz sound that Nintendo are so fantastic at, I wanted to try and write something that was different. I’d been listening to Beetlejuice by Danny Elfman and liked how quirky it sounded, he used a lot of “Ooom-pah” rhythm and I liked the way it added humor to the music, so I started thinking about how that could sound with Banjo Kazooie. That was really how I stumbled across that tri-tone thing and I thought it matched the characters really well.
How it was working with the people in Rare back in the days? I’ve played extensively all your and their games, they are part of what I am today, they contributed to shape my tastes. I’ll never be thankful enough for what you guys did. Tell me more about that magical times
Working at Rare at that time was just amazing. It seemed like the company could do no wrong. I put that down to Tim and Chris Stamper’s vision for all the games. They were always in total agreement about how the games should be. I worked more closely with Tim than Chris, Tim always had something to say about anything I wrote, he always had something that I hadn’t thought of that would make me write better music.
I really think that all the teams there felt like it was us against the world back in those days. All the teams were kept separate so no one knew what the other team was doing, it kept a friendly sort of rivalry going among us that made everyone try harder. It was a family run company with no corporate pressure, if Nintendo got angry that the games were delayed (as they always were) Tim and Chris took the heat and didn’t let the team know. They would always say that the games would be released when they were ready and not before, no matter how long that took.
How come no one come out with a new Banjo & Kazooie game? I would love to make a new one with you, would you?
I don’t know why there’s never been a Banjo Threeie. I don’t think Rare have the time now as Sea of Thieves is occupying the entire studio. I think if another studio went to Rare with a good idea for Banjo they’d look at it seriously, it’s the only way another Banjo game will get made, it has to be an external studio that is passionate about Banjo and gets all the humor and also has a good idea about where to take the franchise.
I’d love to make a Banjo game with you. I honestly think that your studio would be the perfect studio to make a new Banjo game. The passion that you as a team put into Mario + Rabbids was just fantastic and I believe that that level of passion would be needed for a new Banjo game.
I would love to see a new Banjo Kazooie game with all my heart. Even if I fancy the dream to be able to work on such franchise, I think it should be Rare doing it. I love them. I can always hope they can grow bigger and do a new Banjo game for all of us. How it was when Microsoft decided to buy Rare? Was this event affecting the people working in Rare, their morale or the project they were working on and why you left after a while?
When Microsoft originally decided to buy Rare I thought it was a good idea. Ed Fries was head of MGS and he was a real gamer. Unfortunately, just after MS bought Rare he resigned. I really thought I’d never want to leave Rare but it just wasn’t working for me. Tim and Chris left after a couple of years and that really sealed it for me.
I think it’s taken a long time for Microsoft and Rare to understand each other but it seems to be working well now with the success of Sea of Thieves.
Why David Wise and Robin Beanland are so much better than you? Do you have any justification for this?
You cheeky Wario lookalike! Alas it’s true, they are both much better than me!
Davide Soliani and Grant Kirkhope in Prague, the night before the Mario+Rabbid recording with the Orchestra, plotting about something (Or, most probably, Grant was just complaining about something)
Photo taken by Romain Brillaud
Thanks for all this compliments. I really appreciate them. Could you tell us how Ubisoft did get in contact with you to score Mario+Rabbids Kingdom Battle?
I got an email through Linkedin from Gian Marco Zanna, it was very polite, which is strange as now I know Giamma I know he is far from polite! It just said Dear Mr. Kirkhope, we have a game that we think you’d be a good fit for, if you’re interested please let me know.
Could you tell us more about how the things went the first time you spoke about the project?
You must remember that day! Ubi decided to fly me to meet with you and Romain Brillaud at Ubi Paris. I remember you all meeting me as I arrived and walking me through to the back of the studio through some big security doors. I thought it was strange that security was so tight as Ubi told me it was a Rabbids game and they were well known.
I remember sitting down with you and Romain and you turning on the TV to show me the game and I saw Mario standing there. I thought that maybe you’d been playing a Mario game whilst you were waiting for me to arrive, but then when you started to move the controller Mario was moving. I asked you what was going on and you said, it’s a Mario game didn’t anyone tell you?
From that point I was in shock, how on Earth was I going to be able to write music for a Mario game, no one can write music as good as Koji Kondo when it comes to Mario. I was sure it was going to be a disaster. I remember you saying that I sat there for about the first hour of the presentation with a very white frightened face so you thought I didn’t like the game …. It was just panic!
Can you explain why it’s so incredibly beautiful and awesome to work with Mario+Rabbids Creative director?
Ha …. you mean DonZilla, the Don Soliani? What a tyrant he is, always moaning and whining about the music being “crappa”!
Actually in all honesty it’s been one of the highlights of my career. I’ve loved working with you, you truly care deeply about the music and it’s been a pleasure writing for you. After being at Rare for 12 years I really thought I’d never find that kind of passion in a team and creative director again ….. but you and the Ubi Milan and Paris teams have proved me wrong! When people play Mario + Rabbids they always say that they can feel the passion in the game, you can’t manufacture that, the team has to feel it.
Davide Soliani and Grant Kirkhope goes out dining together for the very first time ever and, of course, Davide Soliani had to pay for everything.
Since we are now talking about incredibly good creative directors, tell us more about when you met Miyamoto San for the very first time. How it was and what were your feelings? Did he say something to you?
You know that story already, it didn’t go very well due to me being very drunk!
I do remember very well but I couldn’t resist the temptation to ask again about that. I still can believe it. Every time I’m trying to imagine the scene I’m half scared and half laughing like there’s no tomorrow. Let’s change topic. Which tracks did you loved the most about composing for Mario+Rabbids?
That’s a tough one. I loved doing Peach’s Castle as I got to rearrange Koji Kondo’s castle theme from Mario 64, also I loved doing Mid Boss Mayhem as I know you liked it so much. It’s the most “Banjo Kazooie” sounding piece in the game, I did try to avoid sounding like Banjo but I thought I could squeeze one in!
I’m sure the Creative and Audio Director of the game went easy on you since you are such a Diva. Right?
I wish! You and Romain constantly moaned about the music from start to finish, it was never ending! I was a slave to two and a half years!
In Mario+Rabbids there’s an iconic track made by Koji Kondo for Mario64, and you get to re-arrange it. Was it easy?
I’ve just mentioned that. It was very scary doing that, Mario’s castle theme from Mario 64 is one of my favorites so I didn’t want to mess it up. I knew that Koji Kondo and Nintendo’s sound team would listen to it so the pressure was high! I just tried to have a little bit of me and then a little bit of Kondo all the way through it. It was very nerve wracking waiting to hear back from Nintendo to hear if they liked it or not.
What you cannot polish?
I don’t know! I’m just not a great polisher, the bit I enjoy the most is coming up with the chords and the melodies. I am getting better these days …. I’ve had to …. as you moaned at me so much during Mario + Rabbids!
That’s not exactly the answer I was expecting. You always told me that you cannot polish…something else. Let’s continue, could you tell us more about this? Which is the proper way, in your opinion, to work on a game?
I think you just have to shut your eyes and imagine telling a story with music. I always think that the visuals tell the story but the music tells you how to feel. It helps when I can see some footage from the game or a document describing the scenario. It helps when I get some music references or movie references that can point me in the right direction.
I think I have one ability and that is I can write music, I’m hopeless at everything else, it’s just the way I’m wired.
Now, stop and think for a second (I know it’s hard for you) Compose a dream team of people for the next project that you would love to work on. Be aware that people will read this and may say: Ah, why I’m not in? Go!
That’s a tough one! Obviously, I’d have to have you ……. Even though I know you’d be a pain in the ass! I’d probably bring in some of the old Banjo team and some of the guys from Ubi Milan too, it would need to have people that I knew can feel the passion. I’d have to have John Williams to write the music too!
You did a lot of super nice stuff after Mario+Rabbids. Can you remind us all the cool project you worked on since then, even the ones that are not strictly related to videogames?
I’ve done a few indie movies, The Wrong Rock is a short animation that is really beautiful. I’ve worked on Shadows and The Handler by director Michael Matteo Rossi which should be out sometime this year. I got to work on World of Warcraft: Shadowlands which was fantastic as I used to be totally addicted to WoW when I worked at Rare.
I can’t mention anything else as it’s all top secret!
You did composed music for Bring back Golden Eye. Can you tell us more about it?
I did! It’s a comedy about a fictitious Goldeneye tournament, I’ve just finished it! It’s been great fun working with director Dan Guest and James Miskell. I lived a lot of my life in the UK in North Yorkshire and Dan and James are both Yorkshire lads so it’s been a Yorkshire crusade! It should be out later this year.
Thanks a lot for you time Grant, it was a pleasure reading all your answers, I’m even sure that some of them are true facts. Hope to see you soon :)
Thanks for asking me the questions Don Soliani!
Thanks a lot for having read the whole article. If you want so far, then I think it’s you would like to see the final proof of why there’s always a banther between me and Grant on social medias. I’m the nice guy here, gentle and daring. He is the bad one. I’ve prepared a customized Mario+Rabbids Cake for his birthday. Instead, he composed a song of complains for my birthday. Have a listen, and thanks again for having spent some time on my blog.